The Most Up to Date Free Information Site on the
For Non-Profit Educational and Research Purposes.



by George W. Penington  -  Editor

MAY, 2005
    ISSUE  #5


2) Special On Conrad Chapman Print
 3) Five More Hunley type subs ?


Hunley Parts on EBay causing a National Stir

7) E. Lee SPENCE STILL IN SUIT over status as Hunley finder

8) Interesting Book From The Law Book Exchange
 10) How did the Hunley's ballast tanks work and how did she submerge?
11) Michael Crisafulli ANSWERS
14) What were people searching for this month:



A special welcome to all the new subscribers. This newsletter IS published
once a month  with a link to the online addition available to subscribers only.

 ALL issues are dedicated not only to the brave and honorable Men of the Hunley,
 but to the Subscribers and Contributors to each issue, particularly to
CSS H L HUNLEY CLUB.    This is my tenth year of running the website as a free service to all those that played a part in making this happen.

George W. Penington


    2) Special On Conrad Chapman Print

Hunley Print Framed :
Special Price:
199.99 plus S&H   ( Product # 1050)  

Framed print of Conrad Wise Chapman's painting of the Confederate Submarine  Hunley.  The print is framed in 1and1/2 inch mahogany, and is double matted . The print measures 22" wide by 28" long framed. Item Name: Framed Conrad print Item Number: 1050 Price: $199.99


Largest Chapman Print Available



 3) Five More Hunley type subs


    realname: Henry Albers
    city: Mandeville state: LA.
    Date: Tuesday May 31, 2005


    I was surprised that you left out the Singer Submarine Company in Shreveport, LA. in your list of places where Confederate  Submarines were built. They built five of the Hunley type subs before the war's end. Four of them were scuttled  in  the Red River to prevent their capture by the Union.




By Eric J. Brock

Originally published in The Forum,
January 26, 2005.
Copyright by Eric J. Brock
and Venture Publishing 2005
Reproduced by permission.

Until the discovery of the wreckage of the CSS Hunley and the recent ceremonies in Charleston, S.C., surrounding the reburial of its captain, George Dixon, and crew, it was not well known that experiments with submarines as weapons of war were made by both the Union and Confederate Navies during the Civil War.

Until I first wrote about the subject several years ago in my column for the now-defunct Shreveport Journal it was even less well-known that five submarines were built at Shreveport's Confederate Naval Yard by the Singer Submarine Company under contract with the Confederate Navy. That story was one of my most popular columns ever. Even now I am being asked about the subs in Red River. So here, again, is the tale of the Shreveport Confederate submarines, brought up to date.



Dr. Gary D. Joiner holds a model of one of the Shreveport-built Confederate submarines. The model was constructed by naval historian William Atteridge of Arcadia, Louisiana.

First some background: the Singer Submarine Company was the creation of one Edgar C. Singer of San Antonio, Texas. Singer was a mechanical engineer and together with a group of artillerists and engineers, established a concern to build contact mines. Singer's mines came to be the most widely used in the Confederacy and the torpedoes Singer's firm built were widely used as well.

Three noted New Orleans inventors, Horace Hunley (for whom the ill-fated Charleston sub was named), James McClintock, and Baxter Watson joined with Singer in 1863. The three Louisianans had successfully built three submarines for the Confederacy already, namely the Pioneer, the Pioneer II, and the aforementioned Hunley. On February 17, 1864 the U.S.S. Housatonic, a Union sloop of war, became the first ship in American history to be sunk by a submarine when the Hunley attacked and destroyed her in the waters off Charleston. Unfortunately, for reasons still undetermined, the Hunley vanished after her successful attack (the first by a sub on an enemy craft in the history of the world) and was lost until the 1990s.

After that Confederate submarine operations took place in other locales, such as Mobile Bay, Alabama, and Norfolk, Virginia. Although their numbers were few, fewer even than Union experimental submarines then being created, they nevertheless struck a chord of fear in the North where the widely circulated newspaper Harper's Weekly dubbed them "Rebel infernal machines."

In any case, the Singer Submarine Company proved successful and was engaged by the Confederate Navy to build several of its underwater vessels at the Naval Yard in Shreveport. Several members of Singer's submarine corps came to Shreveport in September, 1863 to begin their work.


The site of the Confederate Naval Yard on Cross Bayou in 1902. Thirty-seven years earlier five experimental submarines were built here for the Confederate Navy. In 1902 many of the original Naval Yard buildings were still standing and can be seen in this photograph.

The Confederate shipyard stood at the fork of Spring and North Market Streets on Cross Bayou. The shipyard built five submarines to protect the Red River. These were similar to the Confederate submarine H. L. Hunley, which had been by engineers of the Singer Submarine Corporation and was the first submarine to sink a ship during wartime. One of the submarines was dismantled and sent to Houston, Texas, but the other four remained in Shreveport. These submarines were never used, but wartime naval orders show that they were not unknown to the Union navy.


Author Pens Book About Red River Campaign,
Second Book Responds to Demand

Military historian Gary Joiner of Shreveport has announced the publication of two books, each related to the Red River Campaign of the U.S. Civil War. One Damn Blunder from Beginning to End is a new analysis of the campaign. This books represents more than five years of intensive research and adds to body of knowledge about the last decisive Confederate victory of the Civil War. The second, The Red River Campaign: Union and Confederate Leadership and the War in Louisiana includes essays related to the campaign and is edited by Joiner along with Theodore P. Savas and David A. Woodbury. Each has received scholarly acclaim by Civil War historians.

Joiner, a member of the faculty of the Department of History and Social Sciences at LSU in Shreveport, became interested in the Battle of Mansfield and the Red River Campaign when he did research jointly with the late Dr. Eddie Vetter at Centenary College. Ad article they authored together is included in the book of essays. He also visited the Mansfield Battlefield shortly after moving to Shreveport and marrying his wife, Marilyn, who grew up in that town.

One Damn Blunder takes its name from a quote by General William Tecumseh Sherman who described the campaign in that manner. Although the Battle of Mansfield was a decisive victory for Confederate forces, it has been largely ignored by historians. “The victors write the history,” Joiner said, explaining the reason for the neglect of this part of American history. “The campaign included northern and southern troops, even troops of the black Corps de Afrique,” he said. “This is part of the American experience.”

The Red River Campaign was originally published as an edition of a journal, Civil War Regiments. Due to demand for the journal, it has been republished with additions by Parabellum Press, a publishing company organized by Joiner to publish work of locally historical significance. The original journal has been updated to include a foreword by preeminent civil war historian Ed Bearss, historian emeritus of the National Park Service, and a driving tour essay penned by Joiner. It includes essays on two colonels of local note, James Beard and Henry Gray.

One Damn Blunder from Beginning to End: the Red River Campaign of 1864

Gary Dillard Joiner, Scholarly Resources, Wilmington, DE, 2002, 198 pages,

Dillard Joiner's One Damn Blunder from Beginning to End, put a fresh face on this little-known campaign. Joiner writes without the much-overused hype of modern Civil War writers--claiming that every battle was decisive. Joiner provides Civil War historians and military professionals a straightforward, valuable account of the Red River Campaign. Joiner's maps, although lacking in detail, are a great improvement over previous maps.

Joiner's new revelations about the Red River Campaign put a different perspective on the causes of key events. For example, he posits that the Confederates made a successful attempt to divert water from the Red River through Tone's Bayou into Bayou Pierre. And, although Admiral David D. Porter's problems have been thought to be the result of low rainfall, Joiner convincingly argues that the fleet's problems were due as much to deliberate efforts on the part of Southern engineers to hamper the U.S. Navy's operations as on the lack of rain.

Four Hunley-like submarines were being constructed in Shreveport and perhaps four or five small Arkansas-like ironclads were there as well. After discussing Porter's naval experience and efforts to monitor the depth of the river, Joiner explains that the admiral's fear of the Confederate ships prompted him to lead the fleet upriver toward Shreveport with the U.S.S. Eastport, the largest ironclad in the fleet, as the flagship. Porter eventually lost the ironclad, not to enemy warships, but to the difficulties of navigating the Red River. Porter's decision hampered the Navy's efforts and almost led to a substantial loss to the fleet.

One Damn Blunder from Beginning to End is useful to military professionals as a modern overview of the Red River Campaign and is especially useful for its analysis of personalities in joint operations; its studies of military objectives clouded by political and other nonmilitary concerns; the dynamics of integrating units used to various operating procedures; and the study of military engineering in terms of ad-hoc solutions to military problems. I strongly recommend the book to serious students of the Civil War.

LTC Steven E. Clay, USA, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas

Gary D. Joiner
Gary Joiner is a member of the faculty of the Department of History and Social Sciences at Louisiana State University in Shreveport. He also serves as director of the Red River Regional Studies Center at the university. In addition to his academic duties, he is owner of a professional cartography firm that provides governmental mapping and historical consultation to governmental agencies. His community service activities have included the local board of directors of the U.S. Civil War Center at LSU in Baton Rouge and the presidency of the Civil War Roundtable of North Louisiana. He has edited the journal of the North Louisiana Historical Association and has served as president of the DeSoto Parish Historical Society. Joiner has provided maps for numerous scholarly publications and has developed geographic information systems (GIS) for civil war projects, including the mapping of Vicksburg National Military Park and mapping projects for the Civil War Preservation Trust. He is a regional expert on historical and archaeological matters and has served as a consultant for regional television projects covering the history of the Red River and the Red River campaign. He has also appeared as a panelist/expert on MSNBC. Joiner is a popular speaker on military history issues for Civil War forums and study groups. He and his wife are founders of the Friends of the Mansfield Battlefield, a nonprofit organization dedicated to preservation of battle sites of the Red River Campaign.



The Naval Yard was located on the southern bank of Cross Bayou where it meets the Red River. The Clyde Fant Parkway now crosses part of the site, which lies immediately north of the Harrah's Casino and hotel complex and stretches back along Cross Bayou to near Spring Street. In 1863 this was a bustling industrial area with foundries, machine shops and smithies. Nearby, a fairly short distance to the west, was the arsenal and magazine of the Trans-Mississippi Department of the Confederate Army. It was at the Shreveport Naval Yard that two of the Confederacy's famous ironclad warships were created: the Webb and the Missouri.

Five submarines are known to have been built at Shreveport. Four never left town but the other was sent to Houston, Texas, though its fate afterward is unknown. As the rest of the Confederacy fell piece by piece, the Trans-Mississippi Department, headquartered at Shreveport (also then the state capital), determined to fight on to the bitter end and, it was hoped, to full independence from the Union. The Shreveport-built submarines were designed by James Jones, a Singer engineer who also was part of the inaugural crew of the Hunley. They were intended to play crucial roles in the destruction of Federal ships on the Red River and elsewhere but the war ended before they had the chance.

A Union intelligence report of March 13, 1865 describing one of the Shreveport-built submarines survives. It reads:

The boat is 40 feet long, 48 inches deep, and 40 inches wide, built entirely of iron, and shaped similar to a steam boiler. The ends are sharp pointed. On the sides are two iron flanges (called fins), for the purpose of raising or lowering the boat in the water. The boat is propelled at the rate of four miles per hour by means of a crank, worked by two men. The Wheel is on the propeller principle.

The boat is usually worked seven feet under water and has four dead lights for the purpose of steering or taking observations. Each boat carries two torpedoes, one at the bow, attached to a pole 20 feet long; one on the stern, fastened to a plank 10 or 12 feet long. The explosion of the missile on the bow is caused by coming in contact with the object intended to be destroyed. The one on the stern, on the plank, is intended to explode when the plank strikes the vessel.

The air arrangements are so constructed as to retain sufficient air for four men at work and four idle, two or three hours. The torpedoes are made of sheet iron 3/16 of an inch thick, and contain 40 pounds of powder. The shape is something after the pattern of a wooden churn, and about 28 inches long.

In June, 1865, the Trans-Mississippi Confederacy surrendered. Shortly thereafter a Federal naval force was sent up the Red River to demand the surrender of the Missouri (the Webb had been captured previously while trying to run the blockade at New Orleans, disguised as a federal gunboat). To prevent them falling into enemy hands along with the Missouri, the builders of the four submarines sank them in the muddy waters about where Cross Bayou and the Red River meet. There they remain, buried in the river's mud and silt, to this very day.

Thus far, attempts to find and unearth the subs have been unsuccessful. Initially some of the casinos were approached about funding an archaeological dig for the craft on their sites but expressed little interest. However, in 2000 and 2001 two thoroughgoing efforts were made to locate the subs. One was a side-scan sonar survey of the river’s banks near Cross Bayou and opposite its mouth. Author Clive Cussler funded the effort which was conducted by marine sonar expert Ralph Wilbanks and local history professor and cartographer Gary Joiner.

The second effort was part of a larger environmental and historical impact survey required by law prior to the start of work on the Louisiana Boardwalk Mall in Bossier City. Pan American Consulting of Memphis, together with Dr. Joiner of Shreveport, conducted this survey.

Based upon known facts regarding the disposal of the subs (which the Confederate Navy intended to raise again one day but obviously never did) and the patterns of the Red River’s shifting in the decades since, it is probable that the submarines now rest on the east bank of the river, well inland from the river itself. In other words, they are likely buried in the earth; high and dry (dry anyway) today.

Lots of magnetic debris was picked up by the sonar surveys including a 19th century locomotive engine, steamboat boilers, steamboat funnels, parts of steamboat sternwheels, and other river wreckage-related items, most of which remain buried.

The most intriguing find was a large metal object, or rather group of objects, found to be about 30 feet deep and several hundred feet inland from the river on the Bossier side, just north of the Bass Pro Shop site on the publicly owned tract erroneously called “Cane’s Landing.” The signals given off by this material during sonar surveys indicate that it is the right size, shape, and density to be the four subs lashed together. Unfortunately, costs and red tape have thus far prevented further exploration of the site but it is highly likely that the submarines are there.

Wherever the subs are they are there for the long-haul as it is highly unlikely they will be unearthed in the near-future. Entombed as they have been for almost 140 years, however, it is doubtful that a few more years’ time will make a great deal of difference to their condition when ultimately they are unearthed as hopefully they will one day be. There seems little doubt that when that day comes it will rank as one of the most important finds in Civil War maritime archaeology, nearly equal to the discovery and resurrection of the Hunley in significance.





What made the Red River Campaign unique?

  • The Battle of Mansfield was the last major Confederate victory of the Civil War.

  • The highest-ranking Confederate officer to fall was Brig. Gen. Tom Green, a hero of San Jacinto and the leader of the Confederate cavalry. He died while commanding troops in what was perhaps the most unique battle of the war – over two thousand cavalry against an ironclad monitor, a wooden-clad gunboat, and a troop transport.

  • This battle, Blair’s Landing, saw the first use of a periscope in battle.

  • The Union fleet was saved by an ingenious series of dams at Alexandria. The dams allowed the river to rise and the Union gunboats to flee to safety. The engineer who designed the dams, Col. Joseph Bailey of Wisconsin, was awarded the Medal of Honor for his feat.

  • The Confederates forced the Red River’s water to almost dry up by creating a dam south of Shreveport which diverted the flow into a parallel stream while allowing water to remain at navigable depths in Shreveport.

  • The Confederates built an ironclad for river defense in Shreveport. The C.S.S. Missouri laid mines that sank the Eastport, the largest gunboat in the U.S. naval force.

  • The Confederates also built five submarines in Shreveport. They were sisters of the C.S.S. Hunley, built by the same engineers. The submarines were 40 feet in length, 40 inches wide and 48 inches in depth. They had a nine man crew. Although ready to defend Shreveport, they were not used in the campaign and were unknown until recently. Four of the five are believed to be in Shreveport waters or underground in the former channel. The fifth was dismantled and sent to Houston, never to be heard from again.




     6) Hunley Parts on EBay causing a National Stir




Four pieces may be available on eBay

by George W. Penington


First thing this morning an EBay alert was sent out by E-mail.. Piece of the C.S.S Hunley.  Described as A 7 lb. Metal hunk of the Confederate States Ship H L Hunley was available to EBay members with a starting bid of $25.00. Within the first hour there had been over 75 visitors to see the mysterious part.



The seller, dweezee831, first comment this morning was that he didn’t realize what a stir this item would bring up.  He describes the part as follows “ This is a REAL piece cut off of the ancient Confederate Submarine the C.S.S Hunley. It 7" long, 3" high and weighs 7 lbs. This is your chance to have a piece of history that rivals musumes! Certificate of Authenticity included. Please E-Mail me with any questions, or if you want more info and pictures. Thanks! “


The seller stated that he had already received over 50 emails questioning the origin and authenticity of the part.



After posting notice of this item in the CSS H L Hunley Club, things started moving. One of the members, Andy Hall, Marine Archaeological Steward, Texas Historical Commission  forwarded the notice to Helen Correia of Guinn and Associates and Friends of the Hunley, Inc. “ Mr. Pennington, Mr. Hall sent us, Friends of the Hunley,  an email about the ebay item from your website, and obviously we are now looking into it. As I thanked him, he let me know it was you who pointed it out and he just passed it along.

So thank you to you too.



Kellen Correia

Manager of Marketing and Public Relations





One of the first questions that dweezee831 got today was;

I am interested in this item. Can you give me history and pictures behind this. How do I know it is real? May-31-05

Club member Tim Smalley quoted the seller as saying;

“My father was a mechanical engineering professor at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. He was the head of many research-preservation teams including the USS Arizona and the Hunley. He died of cancer in 2001. I inherited 4 pieces of the Hunley. I was planning on making the certificate of authenticity and having it notarized. However, since I have received over 50 E-mails in 5 hours from people expressing massive interest in the piece, I have since called my lawyer. I am currently contacting former collueges of my fathers to try to get a COA from someone who was there and is still involved with the Hunley. I am considering taken the item off auction and putting back in the safety vault at the bank until I can get a COA done with a professional and my Lawyer. So that’s the story. I really didn't think it would spark this much interest so fast, I will work my hardest to get this done right and get it back up on auction. Thank You.”


Andy Hall did some quick research and came up with the following:


That would be the late William Weins
m), who did indeed consult on both HUNLEY and ARIZONA. There are
several researchers at UNL that have been working closely with these
high-profile projects, doing a variety of metallurgical analyses.
Almost certainly, the father's possession of them was entirely legit,
and this link to the HUNLEY removes (in my mind) the suspicion of
nefarious doings associated with the eBay auction. I don't think
there's anything malicious going on here.

That said, I doubt the son should have these at all. I'm doubt these
iron samples were transferred to the father personally, but to the lab
with the understanding that they would be used for testing. Such
transfer arrangements usually specify that unused samples (i.e., not
destroyed in testing) be returned to the agency (FotH or the NHC). I
imagine that when Dr. Weins passed away, the folks at UNL probably
just packed up all his stuff and turned it over to the family. Bottom
line, I have my doubts whether these samples were Dr. Wein's personal
property to begin with, and most likely should not have been part of
his estate to be passed on to his heirs.-------------> AH


In the mean time Barry Rugoff from the club wrote the seller; stating,

 “Thanks for the reply! Please accept a friendly bit of advice from

someone who has spent many years studying the Hunley:

If your artifacts are really from the H. L. Hunley, they're
priceless and may contain clues to one of the greatest historical
mysteries of all time. With all due respect to your father, they
should never have been removed from the boat and exposed to the air.
The right thing to do would be to donate them to the Friends of the
Hunley science team at the Warren Lasch Center in Charleston. The
Hunley science team can conserve them properly and will do a
complete archaeological analysis of them. Like the rest of the boat,
these pieces should be kept in a controlled underwater environment
in order to avoid the metal rusting away before the concretion on
the outside can be removed.

The recognition and gratitude you would receive in exchange would be
equally priceless. The Hunley will eventually be displayed in a
museum and your gift would be acknowledged and appreciated by
generations to come. You would achieve a bit of immortality.

However, I understand that you may consider the money that you can
get by selling these pieces to be your inheritance. That's not an
unreasonable point of view. You only inherit from your father once
in your life and I'm sure he would want to benefit from the things
he left behind. If that's the case, please consider selling them
directly to the Friends of the Hunley. If you choose to sell them
privately, please choose someone responsible who will do the right
thing with them. There are thousands of unethical and/or misguided
collectors of Civil War artifacts who will hoard them away and allow
them to disintegrate. That would be a real tragedy.

If I can be of any service to you with regard to information about
the Hunley or the people involved with it, please don't hesitate to
ask. Thanks very much, Barry


Barry continued to explain that he had been assuming that the ownership of the items wasn't in doubt. Obviously, Dr. Wien's son has made the same assumption, the legality of which will undoubtedly be questioned by the FotH.

This may place dweezee831 in a difficult position because an eBay
auction is a legally binding contract. I'm not sure whether or not
he can cancel the auction once a bid has been made. George, you may
have to cancel your bid in order to get him off the hook. As of this
moment, it's the only one.

I'll send dweezee831 another email right away that advises him to
cancel the auction until the ownership issue is resolved.

By time we looked further into this after I placed my bid, I went back to EBay to find that over 100 people had visited the auction and there were now three bidders. Posted on the auction was the following question:, “Where these pieces taken w/ the knowledge of the Hunley Commission and National Geographic Society? Jun-01-05 By this time things were obviously heating up for the seller. He answered by stating that, “After doing some research of my own, i now know that i cannot get a COA. Also the pieces are NOT the Hunley. Anybody that bids WILL NOT be expected to PAY. DO NOT BID ON THIS!”


Ian Chafee footnoted the following policies from EBay:
Section 5:"Listing and Selling.
5.1 Listing Description. You must be legally able to sell the item(s) you list for sale on the Site."

If it wasn't his to sell, he can't sell it.  If he can't sell it, EBay handles it like any other invalid auction, like the time that Jets fan tried to auction off their field goal kicker because he missed a kick:


Ø     If it wasn't his to sell, he can't sell it.

I'm sure the seller legitimately believes it's his property. And,
depending on what sort of arrangements/written agreements were made at
the time the samples were passed to his father, it may be difficult at
this point to prove otherwise. It's possible (though not likely, given
the prominence of the wreck) that there was no paperwork formally
setting out the terms of transfer of those samples. I have seen that
happen, too; there's simply a verbal agreement or "understanding" about
how the samples will be handled, without any formal documentation.

In any case, this is much more clearly a case of misunderstanding/poor
communication than of fraud or theft. Hopefully it can be resolved. AH



Tim Smalley <> wrote: This just came up on the site. Looks like things got a little too hot for the boy...

Q:Where these pieces taken w/ the knowledge of the Hunley Commission and National Geographic Society?Jun-01-05A:After doing some research of my own, i now know that i cannot get a COA. Also the pieces are NOT the Hunley. Anybody that bids WILL NOT be expected to PAY. DO NOT BID ON THIS!

The fact that the seller suddenly states: "Also the pieces are NOT the Hunley" in my opinion shows that he has suddenly panicked and wants to cover up the facts too late. So he is damned if you do and damned if you don't. If he sticks to the statement that they are not the Hunley, then he has attempted to commit fraud through EBay or  has he figured out that he can not get a Certificate of Authenticity without exposing himself to the fact that he may be in possession of stolen property.  It has always been my opinion that every piece, parcel and scrap of the Hunley belongs to us, the citizens and taxpayers down to the pluff mud, research, pictures,  artifacts and copyrights, and that we should be allowed to enjoy, study and appreciate every scrap. The FOTH are the keepers and protectors of these items. This man has already stated that he has consulted a lawyer and it would probably be best if he invokes his right to remain silent. I have always had suspicions that this may have been
happening and will not be surprised if more items show up in places that we do not know about.  It is like stolen artwork that stays in private collections for the enjoyment of only a few until one day they finally show up. This seller's father kept these artifacts in a vault until he died and either by greed or ignorance he brought them out of hiding.  GWP

5.3 Fraud. Without limiting any other remedies, eBay may suspend or terminate your account if we suspect that you (by conviction, settlement, insurance or escrow investigation, or otherwise) have engaged in fraudulent activity in connection with the Site.



----- Original Message -----


To: Kellen Correia

Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 1:51 PM

Subject: Hunley Parts - Ebay


Hello Kellen; By now I guess you know that the auction of Hunley parts on eBay has cancelled all bidding. I received the following notice.


 "Dear eBay Community Member,
The bid that you entered for the item (3978062220) has been cancelled. You can view the reason provided for the cancellation by selecting the (bid history) link from the individual item page.

eBay “

I always suspected something like this may happen and wonder if there is any more like it out there. The seller started back tracking suddenly on all his claims which originally appeared very real.

Can you tell me what if anything your group may have done and are there any plans to somehow retrieve these items.  Thanks, George W. Penington


Kellen wrote back;

Hello George,

Yes, you can imagine that we have heard from a lot of people about this and we are tracking it down. I appreciate you passing the information along.

Hope all is well with you.

Thank you,



Sorry George, I don't think I answered your question. Yes we are currently working on getting to the bottom of this and retrieving the items.





When I tried to investigate why the bidding was cancelled the only notice I got was: Cancelled: Explanation: The seller ended the listing early and cancelled all bids.

Dear mistergwp,

You asked:
"Do you know what piece this is, who will authenticate it, and How did it end up in Nebraska? LOL Would like to include this info in my newsletter. George"

it ended up in nebraska, because UNL professors were in charge of researching it. see e bay site.


When I went back to Ebay the following was posted:

The seller ended this listing early because the item was lost or broken.




In a letter from Brian Hicks of the Post and Courier he states:


Good to hear from you, and thanks for the email. I'm out of town but have
heard the rumblings of this auction halfway across the state.

I'm told by folks on the project that the pieces are not off the Hunley,
that the guy is confused, but I don't know all the details. Seems the
guy's dad was analyzing stuff from two or three projects (which is
referenced in the email you sent me). anyway, I think he's just mistaken.
I know how tight the scientists at the lab are and I don't believe they
have sent off any piece of sub, perhaps other than some drilled out rivets
to someone testing new conservation methods. And I may be remembering that

Anyway, I'll let you know if I hear anything else.

Take care,






     7) E. Lee SPENCE STILL IN SUIT over status as Hunley finder     


Spence Cussler

 Plaintiff estimates credit in millions

By Bruce Smith
The Associated Press

CHARLESTON - Underwater archaeologist E. Lee Spence says he suffered
$309 million in damages because the discovery of the Confederate
submarine Hunley was credited to author Clive Cussler.

The figure was discussed during a deposition Spence gave as part of
the federal lawsuits arising from the discovery of the Hunley a
decade ago.

"I want the jury to award me everything they believe it has cost
me," Spence said Wednesday. "I'm trying to be conservative in my
figures as to what it cost me.

"I didn't spend that much money and not that I would have received
that much money, but I would have had that benefit."

The figure is "absurd and I think it is ludicrous," said
John Lay
Jr., the attorney representing Cussler.

Cussler recently was granted a delay in the trial until at least
August because he recently underwent open heart surgery and would be
unable to travel for three months.

A group headed by Cussler sued Spence in 2001.

That suit says Spence's claim that he found the submarine injured
the reputation of Cussler's National Underwater & Marine Agency and
divers Cussler hired who have been credited by the S.C. Hunley
Commission with finding the sub in 1995 off

Spence later countersued, seeking damages and asking the court to
declare him the discoverer of the Hunley, the first sub in history
to sink an enemy warship.

Spence says he discovered the sub in 1970.

His suit said he filed documents in admiralty court in 1980 claiming
ownership and published a chart in 1995 showing where it was.

The 40-foot, hand-cranked Hunley rammed a spar with a black powder
charge into the Union blockade ship
Housatonic, sinking the vessel
Feb. 17, 1864.

The Hunley sank as well and was located in 1995.

It was raised five years later and brought to a conservation lab at
the old Charleston Naval Base, where it sits in a tank of chilled

Spence, who has been representing himself in court, said the damage
figure includes $150 million in the ad value equivalent to the
publicity Cussler has garnered by being credited with finding the

"If you figure the TV time and all the newspaper and radio
[coverage] that has said
Clive Cussler recovered it, even though he
didn't receive money for it, he received value for it," Spence said.

"I don't think as a matter of law it's legally sustainable" to seek
damages for such value, said Lay, adding that Cussler never profited
from the Hunley. "
Clive Cussler had a substantial name before this
ever occurred.

"He has never given a speech specifically on the Hunley."

Spence says the damages include, among other things, lost speaking
engagements, lost profits on his books and losing a contract to dive
for a treasure wreck he researched and that subsequently was found.

He said it does not necessarily mean he would have made $309 million.

"There is a tremendous benefit to being the president of the
States although they don't pay you for that," Spence said.





     8) Interesting Book From The Law Book Exchange


1852 McCulloch, J.R. [1792-1864]. Vethake, Henry [1792-1866], Editor. A Dictionary, Practical, Theoretical, and Historical, of Commerce and Commercial Navigation.

* Later American edition of a work first published in London in 1832. The appendix has a title page listing A. Jones as the compiler and the imprint New York: Published by George H. Bell, 1852.


This copy may have belonged to the U.S.S. Canandaigua, which was involved in the first successful submarine attack. An annotation on the rear free endpaper of Volume I states "U.S. Sloop War "Canandaigua"/ Navy Yard-Charlestown Mass. Sunday Nov 18th 1865/ Commander J.R. Goldsborough/ Vol Lt. E.J [illegible]/ Chief Engr Baliman." This may be the U.S.S. Canandaigua that was involved in the sinking of the C.S.S. Hunley in Charleston harbor in 1864. The Hunley was an early submarine that attacked and sank the U.S.S. Housatonic. The Canandaigua fired upon the surfaced Hunley, which may have caused it to sink. (Historians debate the cause).






realname: Don Carpenter
city: Summerville
state: SC
country: USA
Date: Friday May 13, 2005
Time: 06:24:44 AM


I enjoyed your site. I'm looking for details to built a realistic model of the actual Hunley. I have a model built from W.A. Alexander's 1863 plans and already note, from your site and others, the many changes that were made to produce the final Hunley.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: Guest Book Entry

Thanks for writing Don,

Michael Crisafulli has an excellent website, with drawings suitable for
developing a 3D models. See:
And high-resolution plans here:

Check the sites out, if you need any other help let me know.  I am in Charleston and wouldn't mind seeing what you have done so far..or you could send me some pictures to use in my next newsletter.  George W. Penington  Webmaster and Editor of The website and newsletter.

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Dear George,

In regards to your e-mail of May 13, I've attached 4 pics of my
model of the Hunley made from W.A. Alexander's sketches of 1863.
The quality of the pics are not that great as all I have is a low resolution
digital pocket camera.

I made the model from scratch using kraft paper, cardboard, wood,
plastic wood and wire for the steering rods. I included all the hardware:
seacocks, pumps, compass, manometer, etc. The crew figures are just cutouts.
I hope to replace them with 3D figures. I scaled the model assuming the height
inside to be 5 foot. This makes my model 1.2 cm = 1 foot. My model is about 40 cm
long(15.75in) excluding the torpedo spar. 

As we know now the "real" Hunley is quite different from this original concept.
Thanks for the references you gave me. I plan to make a model of the
 "real" Hunley, again from paper and cardboard. I would like to make
plans and or kits of these 2 versions of the Hunley and maybe sell them
a lot less than the resin models now on the market.

Thanks again for your help.

Sincerely, Don Carpenter





   10) How did the Hunley's ballast tanks work and how did she submerge?
Hunley ambient? and ballast and dive plane operation.

----- Original Message -----
From: Akins
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 11:21 AM
Subject: Hunley ambient? and ballast and dive plane operation.

Dear Webmaster for the official Hunley submarine site.
I am a personal submarine owner. I am also a member of,
a personal submarine owner web site and forum.  We have been
discussing the Hunley and trying to figure out how she worked.
I am interested in how the Hunley's ballast tanks worked as well
as how she submerged.
Would you please tell me if my below description is correct
and if it is not, would you please explain to me how it is wrong.
My information is that the Hunley had open top (bathtub style)
ballast tanks that were open to the hull interior. My information
is that the Hunley did not carry compressed air tanks.
From this I deduced that the Hunley had all her air from the
surface trapped within her when she dove and could never lose any of that air.
This would make the Hunley like an upside down glass trying to
submerge without losing any air. The only way the Hunley could
submerge in my mind, would be for the Hunley to use her
forward motion and dive planes to force her underwater, is this correct?  
Then once underwater the superior water pressure would force water
into the opened valve of the open top ballast tanks and compress the atmosphere
in the Hunley. Wouldn't this make the Hunley an ambient submarine
as opposed to being a 1 atmosphere submarine?
Then when the Hunley wanted to accend the crew would somehow
utilize the compressed atmosphere (how did they do that?) and a pump,
to pump the water out of the ballast tanks and then the
atmosphere in the Hunley would decompress and return to 1 atmosphere
and she would ascend. Is all the above of what I just wrote correct?
Also, has anyone done an analysis of how stable or unstable the
Hunley would be if she dropped
her keel weight to return to the surface, and were there any indications
of that trying to be done inside the Hunley artifact?
I would appreciate if you could cover all the above questions and
correct or confirm what I wrote so I can share them with my fellow
personal submarine owners at
 Thanks very much.  Sincerely,  
Bill Akins.
----- Original Message -----
To: Akins
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: Hunley ambient? and ballast and dive plane operation.

Dear Bill - Thanks for writing - I am going to post your letter in our
club so that we can all discuss these interesting questions.  
Feel free to join in we have alot of knowledgeable people, experts,
engineers and rocket scientist and even a few trained monkeys.
You will have access to some of the best websites around for
information about the Hunley. My site by far is not the official Hunley site. 
The official site is  Thanks for your interest,
hope you join us and stay in touch. George W. Penington 
Webmaster and editor of the website and newsletter. 
Club address:

Thanks for responding George.Thanks also for supplying me
with the official Hunley site URL.Bill Akins.

Hello Bill - Here is one of the responses we got to your email. 
Thanks, George W. Penington  Webmaster and Editor of
The website and newsletters. 

    11) Michael Crisafulli ANSWERS

----- Original Message -----
From: jvnautilus
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:15 AM
Subject: [CSS H L HUNLEY] Re: Hunley ambient?
and ballast and dive plane operation.

First for George:
>Dear Webmaster for the official Hunley submarine site.
If only this were true.

Now for Bill:
>This would make the Hunley like an upside down glass trying to
>submerge without losing any air. The only way the Hunley could
>submerge in my mind, would be for the Hunley to use her
>forward motion and dive planes to force her underwater, is this

It is likely that your interpretation is correct.  The volume of the
ballast tanks is very small compared to the entire interior.  One of
William Alexander's 1902 drawings shows little difference between
waterlines with the tanks empty and full.  The full waterline has
the hull submerged but most of the hatch towers out of the water. 
Since this amounts to very little of the full volume of the
submarine, we can deduce it was designed to run with a slightly
positive buoyancy and used to planes to dive and stay submerged.

>Then once underwater the superior water pressure would
>force water into the opened valve of the open top ballast tanks and
>compress the atmosphere in the Hunley.

This is possible, but would require carefully timed and coordinated
activity to accomplish correctly and safely.  The sub does have
complex piping between the tanks but not enough information has been
released for us to do more than speculate about its working.  Once
again, there is very little volume in the tanks to work with so it's
unlikely there was much compression.

>Wouldn't this make the Hunley an ambient submarine as
>opposed to being a 1 atmosphere submarine?
>Then when the Hunley wanted to ascend the crew would somehow utilize
>the compressed atmosphere (how did they do that?) and a pump, to
>the water out of the ballast tanks and then the atmosphere in the
Hunley would
>decompress and return to 1 atmosphere
>and she would ascend. Is all the above of what I just wrote correct?

Technically, with the open ballast tanks your characterization is
correct, but only to the point that the tank valves were closed.  We
know they were closed (at some point) during normal underwater
operation because the second sinking, that cost Hunley his life was
attributed to his leaving the forward valve open.  Pumps were used
to empty the tank, as far as we know, and any effect of a slightly
compressed atmosphere was likely only casual and not designed in.

>Also, has anyone done an analysis of how stable or unstable the
>Hunley would be if she dropped her keel weight to return to the
>surface, and were there any indications of that trying to be done
> inside the Hunley artifact?
This would be an interesting exercise.  As far as we know, the three
(of seven) droppable weights were designed for emergencies, so
intent would only be to get to the surface.  We can assume they
would have wanted to arrive there right side up.  The four non-
droppable weights were probably there for that reason.

The official reports about the weights have been non-committal, but I
believe there was no attempt to release them because of the
positions of the handles.  Read my analysis pop-up by clicking the
keel-ballast or keel-ballast icon near the top of my reconstruction





Hello Webmaster,


This morning I was reading about the Civil War Reenactment. 
We’re interested in The Battle of Secessionville.  The page reads
“November 23rd & 24th”.  These are a Wednesday and a Thursday. 
 Later in the page is says “Battles at 3PM Saturday and 2PM Sunday.
In trying to plan our weekend, please clarify this for me.  I truly appreciate it. 



Hello Dee: I have updated the information on the
Battle of Seccessionville page. It is actually on the
19th and 20th this year.2005  George W. Penington 
Webmaster and Editor of the website and newsletter.


These photos were taken at the Battle
of Secessionville held on the grounds of Boone Hall Last Year .

April 1, 2005
Hours of operation change at the plantation.
Monday-Saturday 8:30-6:30
Sunday 1:00-5:00

November 19 and 20, 2005

 Photo's provided by:      


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 9:27 AM
Subject: DAR program




Just wanted to touch base with you again to let you know we are looking forward to your program on The Hunley on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 at the home of Florrie Ervin at:


1102 Cherokee Road

Florence, SC  29501

Her home phone number is (843)


I will be out of my office on Monday afternoon and all day Tuesday for a meeting in Charlotte, NC.  Therefore please let me know if you have questions by Monday morning.  You can reach me by calling my office number which I will forward to my mobile phone number.  During my meeting the phone will be cut off but you can leave a message.


Thank you. Lynn G. Blackmon

Blackmon Paralegal Services

Please send biographical information

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: DAR program


Present:  Editor, Publisher, reporter, photographer and writer

of THE HUNLEY.COM Newsletter - monthly  newsletter based on
The Hunley Submarine History- Published 57 issues to date.

Webmaster, builder and designer of website

- The Most Up to Date Free Information Site on the WEB For

Non-Profit Educational and Research Purposes.


Building Consultant  - Developed and owned

– first dot com to offer virtual internet tours and sales of real estate in Charleston, S.C.

Staff Engineer – Construction Coordinator Medical University of S.C.

 Owner – Building Consultants and Inspection Services –

Division of Sample Engineering Company


Former Building Official City of Isle of Palms and City of Sullivan’s Island, S.C.

Worked as a Real Estate Broker, in Sales and Construction.

Worked for Congressman Arthur Ravenel, Jr. also served with Sen. Glenn McConnell

as President of Sophomore Class – College of Charleston -1969


 Lifelong Charleston Resident

Married with one daughter

Enjoy Reading, Fishing, Civil War Naval History

Inventor – hold U.S. patent on a “Stair Climbing Device”
Journalist and writer
Polio Survivor – One of the last to contract Polio in the 1954 Charleston Epidemic

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---- Original Message -----
From: "tia hunley"
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 9:13 PM
Subject: i know george's middle name...

> To whom it may concern: you were requesting George E.
> Dillon's middle name? I saw it on the Hunley
> newsletter at the bottom of the homepage...
> George Evert Dillon

>Very interesting...send me the link for the page that you saw this on.
George W. Penington  Webmaster and Editor of The website and

----- Original Message -----
From: "tia hunley" <tiahunley
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 4:01 AM
Subject: I made a mistake..

when I emailed you, I misspelled George Dixon as
 George Dillon. I can not honestly tell you how I know
 or why I think I know his name to be Lt. George Evert would not believe me anyway. But, I saw
 that you had requested what his name was on the Hunley
 newsletter, and when I wrote to you, I made it sound
 as though I had gotten it FROM the newsletter...also I
 misspelled his last name, to Dillon. I have found
 since Lt. George Evert Dixon listed on the web, but I
 can not access the page. I discovered this AFTER my
 premonition of Evert.
 Also, can you tell me what Horace Hunley's wife and
 children were named? I came down from Sumter this past
 week to see the Hunley, and heard them mentioned in
 the speech, but I was too overtaken with emotions at
 the time to ask...and I do not remember. I know that I
 am a relative of Horace, but I want documentation on is imperative that I find this information out.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 10:06 AM
Subject: Guest Book Entry

realname: Jim Peyton
city: Murray
state: KY
country: USA
Date: Wednesday May 04, 2005
Time: 07:06:04 AM


Mr. Pennington, I want to thank you for the fine job you do with this newsletter.
I am a cousin of H L Hunley and have the Hunley family bible here at my home
now in a fire-proof safe. I took this bible with its precious Hunley ancestry with
me to Charleston last year and showed it to Senator McConnell and other dignitaries;
I descended from Horace Hunley's grandfather, William Hunley;
I want to subscribe to your newsletter but I am not sure how to do so.
I would enjoy corresponding with you. Best wishes, Jim Peyton


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Guest Book Entry

Hello Jim...Thanks for writing. It is an honor to hear from you
and I would enjoy corresponding with you any time. I am also sure
that the subscribers would like to hear from you and some of your
comments. The link below will take you to the subscribe page. 
I will go ahead and put your name on the list because the April
Newsletter is out and has been sent to Mr. Williams who handles
the subscription mail out.
Here also is the link to the Newsletter page which will give you
the links to view and download the other 2005 Newsletters.
In Newsletter #57 is a comment from one of your family members. 
Thanks again for writing and stay in touch.  George W. Penington 
Webmaster and Editor of the website and newsletter. 
You may get another e-mail like this, just bare with us.
{Here are the links to the April Newsletter. Please feel free
to forward them to friends who may be interested in subscribing.
This issue contains information about the Depth Gauge and
Supposed Eyewitness reports of Seeing the Hunley raised in 1871
and alot of other interesting news items..
Thanks for your support.  George W. Penington 
Webmaster and Editor of the website and Newsletter.
click here Latest Issue in HTML or PDF VERSION
or cut and paste the following lines into your web browser;


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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.3 - Release Date: 5/3/2005
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: Book-captain and Submarine by Ruth Duncan
I am a 3rd cousin,4x removed of Horace Hunley's,
I was wondering what this book is selling for since
it is now somewhat rare? thanks- Jack Miller

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: Book-captain and Submarine by Ruth Duncan

Jack..thanks for may want to contact Mark to see if he has a copy.
I know they sell for between $135 - $150.  Good Luck
George W. Penington  the poor Webmaster and Editor of
the newsletter and website
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 12:05 AM
Subject: Hunley Tours

Are tours of the Hunley still available?  If so, do you know the schedule for 2005?
Thank You.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: Hunley Tours

The schedule is the same as 2003  try this link
or Stay in touch...George W. Penington 
Webmaster and Editor of the website and newsletter


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----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 6:34 PM


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:41 AM
Hello Linda;
Thanks for writing...I am copying your letter to the
folks at Friends of the Hunley, Inc. I would also like
some information on the traveling exhibit...I didn't know
it was still moving.  George W. Penington 
Webmaster and Editor of the website and newsletter


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-    top

    14) What were people searching for this month:

which ship did the hunley
 sink on its last mission
videos for sale
in the hunley gift shop









the watch

hours of operation

Commander of the hunley


the train that carried
the hunley

id tag

gold coin


steering the hunley


the hunley artifacts


hunley crew








san Diego tour


Aug 29 1863


newsletter #57

online subscriber


obstacles to recovery



final location of the hunley museum


 pictures or the hunley

 how the hunley rudder works

how the huny rudder works

 pictures or the hunley



 number of men


 hunley blueprints

 (hunley blueprints) AND (hunley blueprints)


 the history


 hunley tours


 2005 hunley news

 The hunley simulation


where is it now?


 Karen Larson Turner


 history of hunley


 day of discovery



 cemetary burial site

 burial site


 what was he huly suposed to do


 cutaway pics of hunley



 pictures of submarine


 picture of the hunley

 Horace L. Hunley the person

 diagram blueprint


pictures artist



 design of hunley

chapman painting


 george Dixon

hunley gift shop location

opening times hunley

opening times


 History of The Hunely

 ccs hunley

 battle at charleston

 major events

 pictures of hunley

 information about the inventor of the hunley

 Stan Clardy

 Hms Hunley

 H. L. Hunley's education

 H. L. Hunley the person

 Battle of Seccessionville




 Ballast Tanks

 history of the hunley



 "who is bill gates"





Buttons found on the hunley

Where is the Hunley currently





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